So how much of the software here on ALPE is going to break once we start using the new GS/OS to be released on Friday? P.S. - Hey Apple - it sure would be a nice perk to have that software available here online on ALPE the day of the announcement!
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-04-28 23:24:46 EST
From: JoshThomps
You mean it is now released? Darn, I've heard nothing about it. What's new in it? Support for resources? More FSTs? SPEED?
I guess I'll have to go bug my local Apple dealer for it...problem is most stores around me are InaComps...those guys are real airheads.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-04-29 10:33:37 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
No, there has been NO System Disk 5.0 Released as of yet, although there sure is enough mention of it in the AppleFest program schedule :). If you all can have a little more patience, I'm sure your questions will be answered next week :).
Dyfet
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-04-29 11:35:31 EST
From: AFA Parik
From what I understand, it will have:
=NO= HFS FST
APPLETALK FST
NEW graphics control panel (Apple NDA thingie)
NEW and REWRITTEN tools
FASTER Quickdraw
I don't remember the rest but I was talking to a beta-tester last weekend.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-04-29 23:21:17 EST
From: JoshThomps
Sorry about that haste, but it's just that I called when it was a Friday, so I thought that was what was meant.
Subj: Try 4.0.1 or 4.1.... 89-05-01 17:56:57 EST
From: HyperRam
C'mon, they aren't going to relese v5.0. It would be 4.1 or 4.0.1. SO far I haven't found anything wrong with it. How bout a new ROM v1.1 for once? It's a pain waiting for the damn tools to load. Well, I guess they have to fix the bugs in the patches before they put them in.
Ram
Subj: Re: System Disk _5.0_ 89-05-01 18:05:40 EST
From: DougMac
yeah, it is bumped up to v5.0 for some reason. There are supposed to be major speedups in all tools, up to 3 to 5 times as fast. Quickdraw was suppsed to be 3 times faster.
I can't see either why it is bumped up a whole major release number, but then again, the mac system disk is going from v6.0.3 to v7.0 when they get it done.... And the previous v6.0 releases were just to take care of the new machines released..
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-01 20:57:48 EST
From: AFL Floyd
Well... if it is a major release than they would naturally bump the major release number. ;)
Floyd
Subj: How do you find out about this? 89-05-04 06:32:06 EST
From: HyperRam
How do you know this? ONe of my friends say there is already v4.1! I don't think you can have faster IO if it's ALREADY at 2.8 MHz with GS/OS.
Ram
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-05 06:15:10 EST
From: HyperRam
I was reading hte IIgs Buyers Guide and it said the GS/OS would be able to exploit faster microprocessors like TransWarp GS but I see no speed difference.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-05 19:04:24 EST
From: AFA Parik
I understand there are some interesting things here, such as flying clovers when you hit ABOUT FINDER :), and a EXPRESSLOAD and resource manager.
So, since it IS public, I assume knowledgable people can answer. Here goes:
1) How does one use expressload, the 21 block p16 file in SYSTEM subdirectory?
2) Will there be any way for people to add their own stuff into CDEVS, the control panel data area?
3) Resource Manager info?
4) Why isthe START file 189 blocks now? Any reasons for the large expansion? Also I think the GS.OS files themselves have increased dramatically (?)
5) When is the first set of docs for this program going to be making the rounds?
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-05 22:43:53 EST
From: DougMac
Well, since I only have the special system disk pre-view thingy, (now that it is announced and posted, it is kind of useless..) The finder is now totally GS/OS. I assume the increased size is due to doing things totally with GS/OS, instead of using prodos 16..
There are no mentions of a resource manager. Are you sure? Oh well maybe some pre-alpha on your beta test disk..
Press releases said that the system should be released in the early summer. I assume APDA will have it then. Does anyone have any knowledge of the program mention by Don Lancaster about the system disk update program, where for some outlandish price of $90 or so, you can get pre-notice for the release, and them shipped when they are released. I don't know if it would include programming info though. Would really suck if they don't..
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-05 22:53:54 EST
From: DougMac
Ah. I see, two press releases. One is more developer oriented, and lists what is included in tools, and one is more a users version.. Yup resource manager is listed, (yeah!), and a text editor. Great great great. Easy to handle text in windows now.. Yeah.. I can't imagine how much revision will have to happen to the tools to handle the resources. We might actually have to get an upgraded APW system now to be able to create resources etc..
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-06 20:54:15 EST
From: AFA Parik
Hmm, whats the PURGE-O-MATIC? Does it just release memory? Am I correct in saying that basically things stay memory resident until memory is needed? I ask because I saw my friend run GS/OS v5.0 and he switched between Prosel & Finder, and when he quit from ProSEL 8 (it was a standard GS/OS QUIT call) it went almost INSTANTLY back to Finder!
Ok, so it stays in memory. Then, he ran his new program for me, and it came up with a "Purge-O-Matic, please wait". wow!
Another thing: Is the control panel new? I just went in there while he was in the john :) and it started me out with the FIRST option, instead of the last (QUIT). ie,
CONTROL PANEL
ALTERNATE DISPLAY MODE
TRANSWARP GS
VISIT MONITER
MEMORY PEEKER
QUIT
usually the QUIT is highlighted, but now the CONTROL PANEL is highlighted! not sure if this is intended, but most people are used to the last option being the highlighted one first. :)
The control panel doesn't scroll up or down, ie, you're on the topmost option, you hit UP. The old one went down to the last option, the new one doesn't do anything. just sits there.
Text speedup is tremendous! WOW!
Scrolling is really nice too, gets a little jerky with TW GS however. :( Window updating is very nice, you can't see the grey boxes with a TW GS! hehehe
New icons look hot too. Only saw a couple though. I LOVE the little plane in the ABOUT area of the NDA control panel. LOL
Subj: System Disk 5.0 Where ?? 89-05-07 11:19:15 EST
From: CompuWizA
Where can I get a copy of the System Disk 5.0 ? Is it only available to DTS people ? I'd be more than happy to pay for. By the way I am not a DTS person.
CompuWizA
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-07 12:46:04 EST
From: AFL Floyd
System Disk is supposed to be released sometime this summer.
Parik: The new Desk Accessories menu is now scrollable. We are no longer limited to the 13 or so DAs. The scrollablility could have had something to do with the difference in how the highlight bar is handled.
The speed of switching between P8 and GS/OS is due to the fact that GS/OS is now kept in memory. It is copied out of bank 0 & 1 and placed in upper memory where P8 can't touch it. On switching back it is copied back to it's normal locations. Quite a speed up. ;)
Purge-O-Matic was written by Jason Harper to try to fix a bug that caused his SHR Convert program to crash (probably not SHR Convert's fault, but a tool bug). Anyway, it would purge all purgeable memory before launching SHR Convert. It has *nothing* to do with System Disk 5.0.
Floyd
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-07 15:08:53 EST
From: AFA Parik
Floyd,
I'm talking about the CDA menu. Try entering it with GS/OS v5.0 booted (GS/OS has always installed its own control panel in memory) and you'll see what I mean.
Lots of patches! The ATINT files are over 120 BLOCKS! WOW! For those who were complaining like me before :) The SFTOOLS have been rewritten for gs/os.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-08 02:49:05 EST
From: Dave Lyons
Parik, Floyd is talking about the CDA menu too. Really--it scrolls if you have lots of CDAs. The difference you noticed is a side-effect of that.
>1) How does one use expressload, the 21 block p16 file in SYSTEM
>subdirectory?
It's automatic. There is an extension to the load file format that ExpressLoad interprets, for loading things faster. The Express tool (like COMPACT, only different), will be available through APDA.
>2) Will there be any way for people to add their own stuff into
>CDEVS, the control panel data area?
Yes.
>3) Resource Manager info?
What about it? Tons of documentation will be available from APDA. I don't know exactly when.
>4) Why isthe START file 189 blocks now? Any reasons for the large
>expansion?
START is the Finder. It's now AppleShare aware & has some nifty features like Icon Info (a much fancier version of Get File Info). Being AppleShare aware means, among other things, that it notices when changes occur to networked disks, & the windows update automatically.
>5) When is the first set of docs for this program going to be
>making the rounds?
System Disk 5.0 is not "a program." Anyway, I don't know when the programmers' documentation will be available from APDA. "This summer" is the best answer I have.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-08 06:45:01 EST
From: HyperRam
How did you get this information Dave? My -very- simple question is WHERE DID YOU GUYS GET YOUR BETA COPIES??? It seems like EVERYONE have one except a few of us. (Unimportant people) Everyone seems to have a developer 2 blocks away. :)
Ram
P.S. Three people already agree-Ohio is a boring place. :)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-08 17:18:43 EST
From: Shoggoth2
Well, I was going to answer question, but Dave did it for me.
Dave Lyons is a certified developer, so Apple would have sent him a beta version of System Software 5.0 for development purposes, as they sent me. You can't get it until it's finished this summer, and you won't want it while it's beta, anyway. It caused some bad blocks on my hard drive and I had to reformat. Be patient, wait until the software is finished this summer.
By the way, I read somewhere that Dave Lyons was hired by Apple DTS. Is this true, Dave? Do you work for Apple now?
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-08 18:07:25 EST
From: AFA Parik
Dave works for Apple so thats probably why...:)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-08 18:09:12 EST
From: AFA Parik
Thanks for the answers Dave. So we don't have to make radical changes in our programs when ExpressCompact (or whatever) comes out? GREAT!
Ahh, now I understand about the CDA menu. No more CDA Master then! Too bad it doesn't scroll-wrap if you have < screenfull though. :(
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-08 21:55:13 EST
From: Nuzz
Gee, I can't believe nobody mentioned the Pop-out menus in 5.0.
That was pretty impressive. I saw two different styles. One scrolled down with a screenful of choices, and the other only had a few choices, but scrolled the rest into view.
Nice job
Mike
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-08 21:58:27 EST
From: Nuzz
Looking at the Print Manager in 5.0 at Boston, makes me want to start a Suki Lee fan club. She fixed some real nasty bugs in that fellow.
Mike
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-09 03:10:56 EST
From: LVirden
So Finder and other software are now AppleShare aware. Is it just me, or does this seem like a strange approach? I mean, how many GSs are going to be on AppleShare? If not 50-75%, then why is that a part of the default? Or does being AppleShare aware also become a plus for all those folks out there stuck with 256k or even 512k - by stuck I mean financially unable to purchase more memory at this time.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-09 15:52:09 EST
From: JimMensch
Many schools wanted the GS to be more appleshare aware. Most users will not use the Appleshare feature. But since we sell to a lot of schools as wel...
Mensch
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-09 17:49:15 EST
From: HyperRam
Schools can't have AppleShare because all the hundreds and thousands of school GS's have 512k. VERY FEW have more than 512k.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-09 17:54:09 EST
From: Nuzz
Hyper
Since the Appleshare runs under a Mac as a file server, you don't need any additional memory, other than that required to run your applications.
It does, however, sound like a sneaky way to get Macs in the classroom.
Mike
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-09 22:47:24 EST
From: HyperRam
Yep, probably a scam! :-) Apple's full of 'em too.
Subj: Scrolling CDA menu 89-05-10 00:01:34 EST
From: Dave Lyons
Yup, at of April 17, I work in Apple II Developer Technical Support here in Cupertino. (If you haven't Apple-I'ed my screen name lately, give it a try.)
Note that Apple-UpArrow moves to the top of the CDA menu, and Apple-DownArrow or just ESC moves you to the bottom (Quit).
Subj: Re: Thanks for System Disk 5.0 89-05-10 18:03:32 EST
From: BCS Al
I just wanted to thank all of Apple's programmers for System 5.0. I hope that we Apple II people haven't become so cynical that we can't appreciate what these guys (and gals) have done for us. I haven't seen much praise here.
I was impressed at AppleFest, since I felt that Apple was making a statement about their position on this "the Apple II is dead" issue: they had something like 200 employees demonstrating, and answering questions. They had System 5.0 and the Video Overlay Card in full view.
I was starting to get a little down on my IIgs, but now that I have seen (and played with) System 5.0, I can hardly wait to get it and (hopefully) develop some software.
I find it hard to understand why people are complaining about files sizes, why have AppleShare, etc. Let's be glad that we have what we have and go from there. Who knows; maybe this will give a 3rd party the incentive to develop a server that runs on an Apple II instead of the Mac.
Thanks Apple and lets hope their is more amazing software (and hardware) in the queue.
Albert Willis
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-10 19:32:42 EST
From: GRMORRISON
I don't believe they are sending it to all certified developers/partners as I have not received one yet.
Gary
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-10 20:17:05 EST
From: JoshThomps
Well, to tell you the ABSOLUTE truth, System Disk 5.0 (or the beta actually) is flying around the pirate world like crazy...I just called up some boards and got it.
Subj: AppleShare FST 89-05-11 00:30:53 EST
From: PElseth
Well, I for one (and my colleagues for 3 more) are _very_ glad to get an AppleShare FST for GS/OS. We are working on a number of projects that are AppleShare-aware, and it's nice to be able to develop under GS/OS and APW. System Disk 5.0 is like a dream come true for this reason and every other (SPEED, resource manager, text edit, SPEED, etc...) Thanks Apple!
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-11 00:36:50 EST
From: Shoggoth2
I'm exceptionally happy with Apple about System 5.0. I love it, using it, programming with it, it's all wonderful. I want to thank all the programmers at Apple for 5.0. It's an amazing accomplishment. I love it!
Apple II Forever! -- Jake
(So, how's that for praise :)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-11 19:02:33 EST
From: CompuWizA
Josh: What BBS did you call ? I thought I was stuck until (ugh) summer to get it.
CompuWizA
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-11 20:32:18 EST
From: JimMensch
We apreciate the praise for 5.0 I have been sharing it with everyone on the 5.0 team. By the way, system disk 5.0d21 does have bugs in it (thats the version from the show) that can cause disks to crash. If you are going to play with a pirated version, please do not install it on any hard disks. ( of course it would be better for you not to encourage stealing by using it, but since I know some of you out there probably are less ethical than others, I thought you should be warned).
Mensch
Subj: Re: Apple at AppleFest 89-05-11 21:58:15 EST
From: SkySinger
Jim,
Thanks for the presentations you and your colleagues gave at AppleFest. Your suggestions relating to animation, shadowing, and the like were really helpful. It was great to be able to ask tough technical questions to people who really know what they're talking about and who were so eager to share what they know.
Subj: Some "official" 5.0 info 89-05-11 22:58:13 EST
From: AndyBoy1
Hey folks,
First, thanks for the compliments. We're real proud of 5.0 and we hope you like it too. I've seen a lot of questions and I thought I'd try to answer as many as I could. Some bear LOTS more discussion so I'm even going to create some new folders!
(Wow, I haven't been on ALPE in 2 months and I'm gonna go crazy tonight and type till my fingers are blue!!!)
(1) ExpressLoad
ExpressLoad is a forward & backward compatible modification to the load file format which give 2-5 times load speed improvements. See the new folder.
(2) CDEV's
A CDEV is a Control panel DEVice. When you use the new NDA control panel, you have a list of icons (like in the Mac control panel). Each icon corresponds to one CDEV. To install new CDEVs is a one step process: Put it in the CDEV folder.
(3) Resource Manager
This is the reason we asked you all to stay away from the resource fork. But not only is there a resource manager, there a big changes in the toolbox, so the other tools can USE the resource manager. See the new folder.
(4) Why is the finder bigger?
As mentioned before, because it does a lot more! (By the way, the "scrolling shamrocks" were part of an internal release which happened to be on St. Patricks day. We also had Christmas and Easter versions!)
(5) Documentation
Documentation for System 5.0 will be available simultaneously with the actual release of System 5.0.
(6) When is it ready?
System 5.0 will be out This Summer. As Mensch mentioned, PLEASE BE CAREFUL if you are using a copied beta. There is a very good reason those disks are betas and not finals. In addition, the rumor that the upgrade will cost $90 is totally false. It's $100. Just kidding.
(7) P8 Switching
This is the feature which should put the "P8 Emulator" to rest for once and for all. It really is fast! Like, from AppleWorks 2.0 "quit" to Finder in under 5 seconds!
(8) Why not 4.1
Well, once upon a time there was a 4.1 but as more and more exciting features were added, we decided to really go for it and bump the number to say, "hey, we've really got something here".
Well, off to start some folders. Thanks again, and hang tight, it's almost ready. Honest.
--Andy
PS If there are more questions which can become their own topics, let's start more new folders. I really hate long lists in a folder where every single subject is "Re: Meaningless Title"
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-12 07:24:25 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
Well, to continue in the chain of compliments on System Disk 5.0, there were two things I was looking for in the IIgs and found here in system disk 5.0, where I had not expected them :).
My first concern was the basic speed of the desktop manager tools. The IIgs desktop seemes to have been saved from mediocracy and turned into a really productive environment.
Strangely enough, the other thing I wanted is exactly what fastfont seems to give, the ability to display at least some text fonts very fast (in particular shaston 8, or any '80 column' 8x8 font, for that matter).
This is not to say that there are not many many many other goodies worth noting in System Disk 5.0 but, to me, the above are most important.
Dyfet
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-12 19:26:04 EST
From: CompuWizA
The only reason I wanted to download the System Disk 5.0 from the BBS is because Summer is still a long way off. It's kind of frustrating listing to you guys talk about all the new features and not being able to do a thing with it. By the way, how did you get it ? Are you Apple Certified Developers ? Can I become a ACD ? If so, how ?
Subj: Re: AppleShare FST 89-05-12 20:50:54 EST
From: DennisDoms
The AppleShare FST was needed badly. Local school districts here all want networking, and Apple was trying to supplant Apple II's with Macs in order to bid networks. They flopped like dead fish versus the lower-priced MS-DOS systems.
Macs as servers? That's fine with me; I might have unrealistically craved an Apple II server at one time but it doesn't make sense to duplicate that type of effort on two CPUs. Besides, if they're using the Mac as a server they can't use it for much else. :)
We'll have AppleShare up at the _A2-Central_ office on a semi-permanent (or even permanent) basis as soon as I get the cabling materials. As network-aware applications appear, I think more people will see the reasons. (I await a multiuser database with great eagerness.)
Subj: Multi-User Data Base 89-05-12 21:17:23 EST
From: Coach101
Though it is P8 based (sorry Barney) I believe DBMaster from Stone Edge is _very_ network aware. I think you have to go to Version 5 Professional to get the goodies though.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-13 01:51:00 EST
From: HyperRam
Hey! Whats the BBS #!!?? Can you e mail me it?
Subj: System Disk 5.0 is still beta 89-05-15 02:56:58 EST
From: Dave Lyons
The only people who are supposed to have System Disk 5.0d## right now are Apple employees and selected developers. Being a Certified Developer, Apple Partner, or Apple Associate is a prerequisite to being "seeded" with things like System Disk 5.0 in its beta stages, but *not* all developers are seeded.
See the Forum Business (I think) folder for a discussion of how to become an Apple Partner or Apple Associate. It isn't free.
--Dave
Subj: System Disk 5.0 is still beta 89-05-15 02:59:46 EST
From: Dave Lyons
Oops...meant to say this in the previous message.
If System Disk 5.0 were ready to be released to the public, it would be released to the public.
It isn't, but it's getting there. If you *do* manage to get your hands on a copy--presumably *without* the 4 inches or so of documentation that is supposed to go with it, telling you what works, what doesn't work yet, etc--I don't recommend using it.
I realize it's annoying to read about nifty features that you can't use yet. But would you rather *not* read about nifty features you can't use yet?
--Dave
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-15 03:26:24 EST
From: HyperRam
I still would like to have a beta copy-just to play with, maybe I could get it to crash my brothers stuff. :)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-15 21:22:46 EST
From: Montagne
This comment actually applies to system 4.0 and 5.0 and answers the question about OS support for accellerator cards. GS/OS (mind you, the operating sytem, not the tools) has a system service call which can be intercepted by accellerator cards. This vector is called prior to dispatching to a device driver and after returning from a device driver and is used to set the system speed. Options are 1mHz, 2.8mHz, FAST & DONT CARE. The routine returns the current speed so that the speed can be changed and restored. Driver speed is encoded in two bits contained in a device driver's characteristic word (located in the device information block). Speed changes can be automatic or may be managed by a driver. For example, the speed encoding for the AppleDisk5.25 driver indicates that the driver does not care what speed the system runs at, but time critical routines contained in this driver must run at 1mHz. The driver calls the system service routine to set the system speed to 1mHz when neccessary and then restores the previous system speed.
As of yet, I know of no accellerator that intercepts this system service routine. I talked to AE at AppleFest in Boston and they showed some interest.
Ray
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-15 21:44:32 EST
From: Montagne
Some more notes on speed ups. Quitting to ProDOS8 is no faster the first time you do it. Subsequent quits are faster because an image of P8 is kept in memory. If the GS/OS application needs memory, the segment containing the P8 image may be released. If this segment is not needed then subsequent quits to P8 applications are lightning fast.
Now how about quitting from ProDOS8 back to GS/OS. Significant improvements have been made here. GS/OS is now moved to high memory and does not need to be reloaded from disk. Well, let's say that most of GS/OS does not need to be reloaded from disk. With system 5.0 there has been an enhancement to device driver loading. Restartable drivers are kept in high memory while in P8 while non-restartable drivers are purged. The OS also keeps track of what drivers are needed so after booting, only drivers that were used by your current system configuration will be reloaded on quits from P8 to GS/OS.
What's a restartable driver?
A restartable driver has no preinitialized variables. Many drivers have parameters that are initialized simply by loading the driver from disk. If these parameters are modified during the course of the device driver's normal operation and the values that the parameters contained at load time are required during the driver startup, the driver is NOT restartable.
To make a restartable driver these pre-initialized variables must be restored during the driver shutdown and a new bit in the device characteristics word contained in the device information block that indicates that the driver is restartable must be set (when the driver is created).
What drivers are restartable on 5.0?
All of them except the AppleDisk5.25. Quitting from P8 to GS/OS on a floppy based system takes about 4 seconds with the AppleDisk5.25 driver installed and just under 2 seconds with the AppleDisk5.25 driver inactive.
Some more notes on drivers --- Many people thought that the device drivers supplied for the AppleDisk3.5 and UniDisk3.5 on system 4.0 were optional. THEY ARE NOT!!! These loaded drivers are neccessary so that the operating system can properly maintain it's internal data structures and PREVENT CORRUPTION OF YOUR MEDIA!!! System 5.0 will display alert dialogs during booting if you are using devices that require a loaded driver but have not installed them. The system will continue to operate without them but may limit the number of volumes supported (SCSI) or prevent use of some high performance features of the operating system. We would rather allow the system to run slow and avoid media corruption than not run at all. Proper installation of the system is extremely easy with the new installer. Please USE THE DRIVERS SUPPLIED ON THE SYSTEM DISK.
Ray
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-17 20:23:49 EST
From: Da Gibber
Ok guys.... here is my 2 cents
System 5.0 is great..... A big hurrah for the Apple // development people..
Now for you guys who want a copy........Don't do it.. it is a trap....
I work for an Apple Dealership in Illinois and I have already see 7 Hard disks that were crashed because of GSOS 5.0 beta.... All seven of them had to be reformated and I called the people who owned them FOOLs (to their faces) No matter what it is totally Stupid to use a Beta system... I agree with Apple on this... wait for the final release... I will not take chances with my 140 meg HD.
AFC Gibber
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-18 22:11:00 EST
From: DougMac
With such a big deal about using the loaded drivers with GS/OS, how about problems with the generated drivers for using the CMS SCSI card? What are the problems with not using the loaded drivers for the other things, that can have generated drivers generated with them? I know I should get an Apple SCSI card, but I don't have any money free now.
Subj: When do you need a loaded driver 89-05-20 03:10:21 EST
From: Dave Lyons
If you're using an Apple SCSI card, you should definitely have the loaded SCSI driver on your boot disk.
If you have a 3rd-party hard-drive interface card, having a loaded driver for your hard drive could speed up access to it under GS/OS, but not having a driver should not cause any problems.
The big deal about using loaded drivers is to make sure the OS realizes when you've switches disks on it. If you don't use the loaded driver for, say, a UniDisk 3.5...you're asking for trouble (maybe some directory blocks from one disk will get written to another disk later, for example).
--Dave
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 SCSI 89-05-23 21:57:44 EST
From: Montagne
The SCSI manager on system 5.0 does not support third party peripheral interface cards at this time. GS/OS will only generate a SCSI driver for a card that is the boot device. If you are not booting from your CMS scsi then a driver will not be generated due to some compatability issues.
We are investigating how the SCSI manager might be extended to handle third party peripheral cards. We recognize a real need for this but unfortunately we just were not able to cover it in this release.
Ray
Subj: HD20SC & 5.0 & Interleave 89-05-23 23:22:09 EST
From: Coach101
What is the recommended (preferably fastest) interleave to use with an Apple HD20SC and System 5.0's SCSI driver? I am reorganizing my disk now and now would be a most convenient time to get it ready for 5.0
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-27 10:10:50 EST
From: LVirden
What is the speed impact of using generated hard disk drivers under System Disk 5.0? I have heard elsewhere that a CMS disk and CMS SCSI card under 5.0 is almost as slow as a 3.5 - is it just that it is so much slower than a loaded native driver that it seems that slow, or is it that the 3.5 " drive is dramatically faster, or is the generated driver that much slower?
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-27 20:27:11 EST
From: Montagne
The generated driver is simply a translator, converting a GS/OS driver call into one or more firmware calls to accomplish the GS/OS driver request. Generated drivers are capable of identifying and configuring themselsves at startup time to communicate with BASIC, Pascal1.1, ProDOS, SmartPort and Extended SmartPort and always configure themselves with the highest level protocol where multiple protocols are supported. When a generated driver is created for a SCSI device, a single GS/OS transaction to read a file of 100 contiguous blocks for example is broken up internally as 100 firmware transactions. Each firmware transaction must go through the SCSI bus arbitration. System 5.0's SCSI drivers/manager would only go through a single arbitration phase for the same transaction. This is where most of the timing differences occur between system 4.0 and system 5.0. I don't have specific numbers on timing differences but on average, we see about a 5X performance increase comparing 4.0 SCIS performance to 5.0.
Ray
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-28 22:13:54 EST
From: AFA Parik
CMS is NOT as slow as a 3.5" drive under v5.0. Its fast as always.
If you know a guy named John Brooks very well, plead with him to write a SCSI CMS driver, he patched the CMS firmware a long time ago to give some massive speedup and i'm sure he could do the same w/ sys disk v5.0. Haven't been able to get in touch with him myself. hint hint Andy. :)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-29 22:01:56 EST
From: AFA Parik
Got a problem. My SETINFO utility won't work under GS/OS v5.0. Tried it in APW and Orca/M, all it does is EXIT, as if the filename was BAD. Haven't tried any serious debugging (lost source code already, thank god I uploaded it :-) but any ideas WHY? The rest of the utilities work fine, such as PACK, UNPACK, ACE, etc. The only thing I remember doing is parsing the filename and then using it in the OPEN call. The parse just stripped the high bit. I've tried
SETINFO FILENAME
SETINFO filename
SETINFO fIlEnAmE
no go! any ideas would be appreciated.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-01 08:01:30 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
Subj: System Disk 5.0 89-05-31 00:39:49EDT
From: SteveS76 Msgs: 4 (89-06-01)
I got an order form from TML Pascal that said that they had SYSTEM 5.0! What is this? My Apple Dealer doesn't have it, but a '3rd Party' does? Is it even released yet...And is TML just putting people on back-order until December? or do they REALLY have it? I want it...But who do I get it from...APPLE or TML?
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-01 08:02:01 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
Subj: Relax... 89-05-31 00:55:26EDT
From: A2Pro Tim
Steve - TML's announcement only said they will ship with 5.0 - but that they have to wait until the final version is available. Believe me, once 5.0's available, you'll know <grin>.
By the way, why did you say "are they back ordering til December?"?? Were you being sarcastic or do you not know the expected release time frame for 5.0?
Tim S.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-01 08:02:34 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-05-31 19:19:15EDT
From: SkySinger
Questions about 2 features in system 5.0:
1) I understand there is the capability to have QuickDraw automatically make use of shadowed screen mem in bank $01. Does the new system provide the ability to keep SHR in bank $01 free while the program is loading? ...or does it only use bank $01 if it finds that the program has seen to it that that area of memory is available?
2) What sort of capabilities are provided by the new text editing tools? For example... can changes in line length be easily modified if the on-screen text window changes its width? Can a MouseDown in a text window easily be related to a location in the text file that is drawn in the window?
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-01 08:03:09 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
Subj: Re: Loading in special memory 89-06-01 00:41:01EDT
From: Rob Turner
SkySinger,
I can answer your first question. When your application is launched GQuit ask that it NOT be loaded in special memory. If the load is unsuccessful then GQuit will try to launch your application allowing use of special memory.
Take Care...
Rob Turner (GS/OS team member)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-01 18:48:34 EST
From: SkySinger
Rob,
Is GQuit a feature of System 5.0? Is it something I will be able to make use of via TML Pascal II stand alone version?
---Thanks---
Subj: Memory and v5.0 89-06-02 18:56:21 EST
From: AFA Parik
Got a quickie about using memory with GS/OS v5.0. I want to be as memory efficient as possible, but quick at the same time. The entire program is loaded at start and disk (and OS!) is never used again.
So, the obvious question. How would I get *RID* of the OS after I'm done with it? Even though it only takes up 200k (?) or so, thats still a good chunk of memory I could use. I do use the ram switched banks in bank $01 ($Dxxx+), what else can I get rid of? Whats the best way to get rid of the loader, which is itself 45k.
Finally, what about the INIT files? For some reason GS/OS won't WORK without the tool setup init files (and the big 'un, TS2, takes up lotsa disk space & mem!). Is the best way just making a small file that has a "RTL" in it and making it TS2?
I did try disposing memory id $0001 but that didn't work out too well...:-)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-03 09:45:12 EST
From: DougMac
I may have a handle on the problem all those silly users who put the sd v5.0d on their hard drives. It appears with working with it for a while, this is the same problem that I've had before about the cache not being written out before my programs crash. If that doesn't happen, various bit block maps and some block lists don't get updated, and get set to weird/unknown values. It appears that maybe the cache doesn't get written out while in a program, (that doesn't use startsession/endsession) after a disk access, and then the user shuts off the macine without doing a shutdown system from the finder. Then the same conditions as before under sd v4.0 that I had. Its old hat to me. Solutions are using mr.fixit and marking the terminally ill areas with filesnames such as bad.dont.delete so that you don't delete other files on your disk. I've been doing this since sd v4.0, so it isn't any new bug.
I've have a friend bugging me to do a INIT or a DA, to call the GS/OS call flush with refNum = 0, to get all the cache stuff out to disk. Heartbeat interupts still work (ie. I can get to the control panel) so if I flush maybe the disk could look ok. Effectively turn of disk cacheing here. Wish I could do it Apple's way, but do what I can..
Subj: Ship Timing Comments 89-06-03 11:50:01 EST
From: Coach101
The following is part of a message I posted to a discussion in the "C" folder. I am also posting it here since it contains some ship timing questions (of a relative as opposed to absolute) nature that could be of interest to all. Heres hoping Apple can comment on this.
I suspect that APW for 5.0 will ship within weeks of the 5.0 system disk. My own personal feeling is that the difference in availability from APDA will be 2-4 weeks. However, I think that 5.0 availability from APDA may lag its availability from various applicaion program suppliers by 4-8 weeks. My thinking is that Apple could finalize 5.0 and license it to developers (allowing them to ship it) but that the production delays of getting an inventory into APDA (along with what I have heard is 1,000+ pages of documentation) could substantially delay its availabibily from APDA.
I think I will post this back in the OS folder and look for comment from Apple.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-03 21:27:03 EST
From: HyperRam
So are we going to see 5.0 in 6-8 weeks?
Subj: Oops..... 89-06-03 22:49:35 EST
From: Coach101
Hyper,
I have no relation to Apple Computer Inc. My guesses and thoughts on hardware/software delivery must be taken in the same light as the prophecies of your local forture teller.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-04 00:55:15 EST
From: Rob Turner
SkySinger,
GQuit has been around since system disk 1.0. GQuit stands for "G"S/OS Quit, the original version was called PQuit, you guessed it, "P"roDOS16 Quit. GQuit is responsible for handling the OS Quit call. It deals with loading ProDOS 8 or GS/OS as needed. There have been enhancements made to GQuit that deal with standard in, standard out , and standard error, all of these should be available with TML Pascal II.
Take Care...
Rob Turner (GS/OS Team Member)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-04 13:15:33 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
It seems the answer I was looking for (how stdio redirection was to be handled) has been answered in a different folder :).
Dyfet
Subj: GS/OS cache & trashed volumes? 89-06-05 04:15:49 EST
From: Dave Lyons
Doug, until and unless I'm faced with strong evidence to the contrary, I'll continue to believe that there is no problem with the cache always being write-through when no session is active.
Instead, here's what I think typically happens when a volume gets trashed in a cache-related way: An application (or DA, or whatever) stomps on the cache accidentally, partially damaging the image of a block in the cache. That block gets read, modified, and written. When the block it written, it's written to disk as well as to the cache, and the damage previously done to the cached image is written through to disk.
Ouch.
Subj: The OS is your friend 89-06-05 04:19:03 EST
From: Dave Lyons
Parik, disposing of the OS is not something that I can recommend, and it's against the spirit of the GS. Ick, ick, ick.
If you really, really want to do it, I think you'll have to go all the way: disable interrupts and don't make any further OS calls or toolbox calls, just using memory however you want.
If you do this, people like me (who like to use their DAs & like to quit an application without rebooting) probably won't use your program.
There's no guaranteed way to get rid of the OS but keep the toolbox around. Since the $3xxx memory IDs are documented as being owned by the OS, DisposeAll on ID $3000 might work, but then again it might not. You'd still have to disable interrupts, since various parts of the OS can and/or do install interrupt routines, and there's no way to ask them to politely deinstall themselves. So you're back to disabling interrupts, which means the mouse won't track and the event manager won't see any keypresses, among other things.
Ick, ick, ick.
I recommend not trying to get rid of the OS. The OS is your friend.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-05 06:05:52 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
The OS is your friend? That sounds so much like "we're with the government and we're here to help". Seriously, though, I have to agree, I do not see why one would want to get rid of the OS. It almost seems like it would be easier to boot under ProDOS 8 at that point and forget all about GS/OS, although I take it that you wish to use all the nifty new tools.
Dyfet
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-06 21:18:37 EST
From: Montagne
Get rid of the OS???
The days of writing unfriendly applications that don't allow return to a program launcher or another application are long gone. There is nothing more iratating for a user than having to reboot the system every time an unfriendly application has been run. Besides, the getting rid of the OS is not a simple task and their is no 100% tried and true method to do it.
Ray Montagne (GS/OS Team)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-06 21:22:15 EST
From: Montagne
Dave, the disk is not usually updated from the cache buffer. I say usually because the implementation of the caching algorithm is driver dependent. Typical implementations in drivers written at Apple always write through to the device but the source buffer for the data is the application specified buffer. A simultaneous write from the application buffer to both the cache buffer and the device occurs. Also, the general case for caching, unless the application overrides it, it to cache only directory blocks.
The cache manager only manages allocation of memory blocks for the purpose of caching implemented in the driver. It does not ever access this memory. Trashed data is usually the result of some code segment overwritting this memory. We have yet to see a released version of the OS do this.
Ray Montagne (GS/OS Team)
Subj: GS/OS TEAM??? 89-06-07 17:30:51 EST
From: HyperRam
I got ONE (for once:) simple question: WHAT IS A FREAKING GS/OS TEAM?? Did you make GS/OS or are you some user group? (this is probably the dumbest question you've ever heard. :)
Ram
Subj: gs/os team 89-06-07 17:41:46 EST
From: AFA Parik
They're a group of people who participate in the Olypmics, no country would take them so they created their own...
nah, its the guys who wrote, developed, helped with, and god knows what else GS/OS.
Subj: GS/OS team 89-06-08 23:49:32 EST
From: ShrinkIt
I always thought they were part of someone's pit crew for some 500 mile race, like the Cupertino 500.
You know, Mensch driving, Montagne and Stadler on the wheels, and Turner and who knows else in the pits....
On second thought, Mensch driving? That's a scary thought. Stadler or Montagne probably ought to drive.. ;-)
andy
Subj: When the cache gets trashed.... 89-06-13 02:42:26 EST
From: Dave Lyons
Ray, once the cache has been trashed (by a misbehaved application, for example), a garbaged image a block (say, a directory block) can be read from the cache, modified by an FST, and then rewritten to both the cache and the device.
Buried somewhere in either this forum or the AUT forum is a user's description of finding a list of font names accidentally imbedded in a directory block under 4.0. The same thing happened to me *once* under 4.0, and I didn't enjoy it. (Block Warden and Mr. Fixit cleaned things up nicely, though.)
--Dave
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-13 19:41:08 EST
From: HyperRam
BTW, where do you get Mr. Fixit? I've been lookin for it-all the mags say it's good. :)
Subj: Mr. Fixit and ProSel 89-06-15 10:51:14 EST
From: AFL Floyd
Mr. Fixit is the volume repair utility that comes with ProSel. For more info on ProSel you can check out the "Direct Connect/ProSel" area of the Utilties forum, keyword AUT.
Floyd
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-15 21:08:02 EST
From: JimMensch
I don't drive so bad....
By the way, it is possible to get rid of the OS after you are loaded with an entirely too complex way of doing things, (you have to track down and dispose of quite a few handles that are just not that easy to find. However, if you had a prodos 8 application you wouldn't have to worry at all, and the tools that would not work with p8 (like the new resource manager) are the same tools that would not run if you destroyed the OS. I would give the p8 route a try.
Mensch
Subj: HOW Fast? 89-06-19 20:37:55 EST
From: HyperRam
Just a simple question :),
Is System Software v5.0 with TransWarp GS FASTER than a Macintosh IIx????
Ram
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-19 23:00:31 EST
From: AFA Parik
You can't tell the difference if you open a window, but its ridiculous if you say the GS with system disk v5.0 and a TWGS is faster than a Mac IIx.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-20 17:59:09 EST
From: HyperRam
How bout a Mac SE or SE/30? :)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-21 21:47:48 EST
From: Montagne
Dave,
Fine about Mr. Fixit. My point is that since cached data does not actually pass through the cache manager (or any other centralized component of the operating system), there is no mechanism to determine if the cached data has been corrupted. If you know of the offending application, perhaps it would be best to contact that developer and see if a revision is possible.
Jim,
Disposing handles is not the only task that must be completed to get rid of the operating system. There are interrupt handlers and managers to worry about too. There is also the possiblity that hardware may have been reconfigured in such a way that slot resident peripherals may not perform properly if the operating system is not shut down in a proper manner. My opinion is it's just not a wise thing to do.
Ray Montagne (GS/OS team)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-23 06:59:36 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
Oh, here is a follow-on question I meant to ask after doing some thinking. In 5.0, prefix's 10, 11, and 12, will be pointed to .console at Gquit. Presumably, a shell application can set these prefix's to filenames or other device names before launching an EXE directly. Question: when has ProDOS allowed an application to set a prefix to anything OTHER than a directory? I recall that ProDOS 8 would give some sort of an error if you tried to prefix to a file by accident, and had presumed GS/OS would do the same. Can ANY prefix be set to ANY filename in GS/OS?
Subj: System v5.0 89-06-23 17:21:45 EST
From: AFA Parik
I noticed a product description in the latest developer shipping (I expected System Disk v5.0 myself, but oh well :) and a part number, etc. Does this mean System Disk v5.0 is shipping? Usually the product description sheets come way after the product is shipping.
Subj: Fill tool on System 5.0 disk? 89-06-24 22:03:33 EST
From: SkySinger
Did I hear someone say that System 5.0 tools included a fill routine?
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-24 23:18:13 EST
From: HyperRam
Where is the *(*#&%( thing!? Everybody says it was going to be out MidSummer-It IS midsummer but I don't see anything! How fast is it? How long does it take to get to the finder from reboot with a 3.5?
Ram
Subj: This is NOT mid summer... 89-06-24 23:40:29 EST
From: AFA Gary J
Calm down, HyperRam.... This is NOT mid summer. Summer only started last Thursday (June 22), and runs clear until September 22, (or somewhere around there...). I'm not positive that Apple actually announced *MID* summer, I think they just said _summer_. If they did say *MID* summer, then the release date would (mathematically) be somewhere around August 6 or so. Hopefully it will be sooner than that. :)
Gary
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-25 10:13:51 EST
From: AFA Parik
yeah, and if Apple were to run into any problems, they'll redefine summer...:)
Subj: International Apple.... 89-06-25 14:31:58 EST
From: Coach101
Since Apple markets internationally, if they ran into lots of trouble they could just say it was targeted for summer in the southern hemisphere. :)
Seriously, everything I have seen from Apple has just said SUMMER. No qualifications were given.
Subj: Prefixes 89-06-25 20:43:54 EST
From: AFL Floyd
Dyfet,
The syntax or validity of a prefix is not checked with the SetPrefix call. To check that you would need to do an Open call or something. So to answer your question, yes, you can set the prefix to point to an actual file and not just a directory.
Floyd
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-26 19:12:07 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
My past experiance had led me to expect setprefix would at least do a getinfo type call. Ah well, if setprefix does NO checking whatsoever, you should be able to set the prefix to ANY string of characters resembling a pathname, correct? If so, one could store other kinds of information in the prefix's :).
Dyfet
Subj: prefixes; SeedFill 89-06-27 22:53:51 EST
From: Dave Lyons
Dave S: Yes, under GS/OS you can set a prefix to any suitably short pathname ( <64 characters for prefixes 0 to 7, and amazingly long for 8 to 31). While you could store non-pathname info there, a better way would be to use MessageCenter and MessageByName.
(I forget who asked): Yes, QuickDraw Auxiliary under System Software 5.0 contains a SeedFill routine.
--Dave
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-28 17:01:42 EST
From: ShrinkIt
Ouch, wouldn't that be a blast? Summer... 1990.
andy
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-28 23:35:44 EST
From: HyperRam
At the rate Apple is moving we won't have it till 2000! :)
Ram (rememebers when he didn't get his GS/OS till Jan!)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-29 03:59:53 EST
From: AFL Dyfet
I was only curious about just how much abuse you could do to a prefix. I agree that message center would be a better place to put strange configuration/information strings.
Dyfet
Subj: Mid-Summer 89-06-29 11:54:52 EST
From: MikeW50
Excuse me, but since Apple's corporate "year" ends on October 1st, doesn't that mean that Apple's summer is over? Ahem... so where is System Disk 5.0? (duck)
Mike Westerfield
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-29 22:42:55 EST
From: Chinook4
Ram must have non-volative memory to remember all the back to January!
Chris
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-06-29 23:06:54 EST
From: HyperRam
Are you kidding, I still feel like I just picked up System Software v4.0! The day I returned AWGS (defective, or so I thought, it had so many damn bugs:) for a good one. :) I keep on fogetting that almost a year has pasted since 4.0 came out and I bought my GS... (Sept.)
Ram :)
Subj: You guy's have got to be kidding 89-06-30 23:35:36 EST
From: PatrickC19
You people are unbelievable... It's a developer's forum, so that means you've all done some development, right?
So when was the last time >>you<< got a hunk of software out on time??? Huh? Heck, most of us in the real world, announce our release dates in terms of "decades" like 1980, 1990, 2000...
Summer -- schum-mer. Apple, I'd rather have it late and right, that "on-time" and not right!
Geesh, nothing worse than a bunch of grouchy programmers! :)
Subj: it shipped? 89-07-01 09:08:10 EST
From: AFA Parik
Someone posted on my user group BBS that he had a final copy of GS/OS v5.0 and its shipping now. Does anyone know? i would call Apple except its Saturday, and marketing is watching cartoons. :-)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-01 11:45:24 EST
From: Rob Turner
PatrickC19,
Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! Thank You!! The voice of reason! I believe that system 5.0 has been developed in RECORD time! Considering that 5.0 was started AFTER the september AppleFest, and the number of NEW features as well as enhancements made, it amazes me how fast the software was written. People don't seem to remember that once the software is written, it has to be sent through our SQA (Software Quality Assurance) department for testing. Plus it has to go through normal release channels, before it gets into the publics hands.
Still proud!
Rob (GS/OS Team)
Subj: Mid-Summer??? 89-07-01 11:53:49 EST
From: Rob Turner
MikeW50,
Hey Mike, what about APW 2.0. Is it on scheduale? All deadlines made? Has it been pushed back, or is it on time? As a registered developer you KNOW where System Disk 5.0 is. Also, I don't think it makes alot of since to talk about "summer" in terms of a corporate calendar. Do you? This would really confuse the public.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-02 00:08:07 EST
From: MD Madness
Did I read correctly ?? Is 5.0 really shipping? When can we expect to see it here on apple link for downloading. Any news to this effect is eagerly awaited.
Sol.
Subj: Re: Shipping?? 89-07-02 01:12:36 EST
From: Rob Turner
MD Madness,
I did NOT say that 5.0 is shipping, I just said Mike should know the state of 5.0. Sorry about the confusion.
Take Care...
Rob Turner (GS/OS team)
Subj: whoops 89-07-02 10:23:05 EST
From: AFA Parik
Made a mistake, the guy said he had a finalized copy but he didn't know if apple was shipping it. Oh well - hopefully rsn.
[ack, nooo, not rsn ;)]
Subj: Apple Fiscal Calendar 89-07-02 11:46:01 EST
From: Coach101
Ship dates in terms of the Apple fiscal calendar are confusing and I had never considered that a possibility until I recently attended a Macintosh connectivity seminar and one of the speakers from Apple offered up some "anticipated" release dates (in terms of quarters) and then promptly explained how to translate from an Apple fiscal quarter to calendar quarters.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-03 00:57:36 EST
From: JoshThomps
I'm always grouchy after programming. Darn, I said NuPak ][gs would be out around March, and it's still not near finished yet. Programmers have an inborn right to be late and miss deadlines.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-03 18:03:41 EST
From: HyperRam
Is it shipping or not!? This is very, very confusing!
Subj: Manager's Rights..... 89-07-03 21:07:14 EST
From: Coach101
Josh,
Managers have an inborn right to compensate accordingly :)
Subj: Shipping? I don't think so 89-07-04 08:50:01 EST
From: AFL Floyd
I'm a seeded developer with System 5.0 and I haven't received the "Golden Master" yet, so I doubt that it is shipping. When it is shipping there will be no doubt and confusion about it.
Floyd
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-04 18:02:12 EST
From: AFA Parik
call Apple DTS Support @ 1-408-974-4897, tell them you're a Apple Partner and you're wondering when your firm will recieve SYstem Disk v5.0. You'll be pleasantly suprised.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-04 23:39:11 EST
From: Chinook4
I don't know what DTS has to say, but flooding DTS's phone lines is probably a great way to makes sure you won't find GS/OS Team members on here answering questions again.
Chris
Subj: Be Patient! 89-07-05 20:07:30 EST
From: AFA Gary J
Amen, Chris. I say be patient! Good things are coming.
Gary
Subj: Dominoes Pizza 89-07-05 22:08:49 EST
From: A GibberFC
Parik.....that number that you gave out was a Dominoes Pizza
I wouldn't be so mad....but they refuse to deliever to Chicago
A GibberFC ;)
Subj: you ruined it 89-07-05 22:48:05 EST
From: AFA Parik
I own that dominoes! i was hoping everyone would call, and in the confusion they'd order a super size pizza w/ everything on it and I could make some mega bucks.
Subj: APDA Is Giving Out A Date.... 89-07-06 20:10:20 EST
From: Coach101
I called APDA today to inquire about 5.0 and they said they did not have it yet, were not taking advance orders, BUT
THEY ANTICIPATE HAVING IT TO SHIP BY JULY 15
Thats the first hard date (as in a real date, not a for sure will make date) that I have seen.
Subj: Developer Programs Hotline 89-07-06 23:04:18 EST
From: Dave Lyons
By the way, the Developer Programs Hotline is not run by Developer Technical Support, and if they gave information about unreleased products to a non-Partner/non-Associate, it was an oversight. Please don't flood them with calls.
--Dave
Subj: 5.0 = Faster printing speed ? 89-07-08 18:43:53 EST
From: CompWizA
I have a question, will the speed up of QuickDraw II increase the Print Mgr.'s printing speed ? I thought this so because the Print Mgr. uses QD calls to print, right ?
CompWizA
Subj: I'm a baaaaaaaaaaaaaad boy 89-07-09 14:57:09 EST
From: AFA Parik
Ack! I've been bitten by my own bug. I desperately needed to change the auxtype of a file and couldn't do it in APW. Not even with my trusty ol' SETINFO utility. Kept on friggin' out. It used to work under System Disk v4.0 though!
So I messed around with the source code for a few minutes, broke out with GSDebug and found the ol' problem.
It seems in System Disk v4.0 and below, you could "expand" :) the path you're opening a tad. That is, you can say the path is gonna be 7 bytes long whereas in reality its only 4 (or whatever). It'll just search for the first non zero value I guess. Well, whatever it was, it used to work fine.
My utility got the wrong number of bytes in the pathname. Since GS/OS uses a *TWO* count byte, instead of 1 like P16, it kept on tripping me.
Theres a simple fix, just grab the source code and at the very beginning you'll see
INX
BRA STORE_STRING1
END_STRING1 DEX
JEQ EXIT
change that to...
END_STRING1 DEX
DEX
JEQ EXIT
simple, eh? I forgot that GS/OS uses two count bytes. Ohhh well. Since I'm the only one moronic enough to not count the proper # of bytes in a pathname, it really doesn't apply to anyone else. :)
Subj: class 1 pathnames 89-07-11 22:56:00 EST
From: Dave Lyons
Parik, I don't understand. What does the incorrect version of AUXTYPE do wrong, exactly? (Length word wrong; wrong number of bytes copied, etc.)
GS/OS always goes by the length word; it does not search for $00s in the pathname.
Subj: Re: 5.0 distrib 89-07-12 20:24:07 EST
From: TMH2
Since this question (asked by someone earlier) was ignored, I'll ask it:
When 5.0 is released, that is, the DAY it is released, will it be available on APE, or will APE get it with the regularity that it gets technotes? (aka eventually)
Z^\GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG\_
Z R
Z T. Mike Howeth II N
Z Dallas, Texas N
Z (TMH2) V
Z B Q
ZO WVWVWVWVWVWVWVWVP_
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-12 21:24:24 EST
From: AFA Parik
Dave,
System Disk v4.0 didn't seem to care how long your LENGTH_word was, and I was using class 1 calls. In system disk v5.0 if your length_word is not correct, it won't function. Ya see my utility didn't count the number of bytes in the string correctly, so it always added a extra byte to the length. It didn't seem to matter under GS/OS v2.0 (since it worked, I never noticed it). Under v2.1, it crashes. Just something interesting to see. If it doesn't scan for 0s, what else would do it?
BTW - you can try it out yourself, just write a program that has a pathname of...
PATHNAME DC i2'13'
DC C'THIS.BE.FILE'
and you'll see it still opens it up w/o error.
Subj: Re: Splash color 89-07-14 19:16:28 EST
From: TMH2
Why doesn't 5.0 match the border color on the splash screen like 4.0 did?
Z^\GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG\_
Z R
Z T. Mike Howeth II N
Z Dallas, Texas N
Z (TMH2) V
Z B Q
ZO WVWVWVWVWVWVWVWVP_
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-14 23:50:44 EST
From: AFA Gary J
TMH,
Sorry if I missed your question before... the only answer I can give is that we'll get it when we get it. The reason we have a slight delay in getting the tech notes is that they have to be converted into text format before they are uploaded here. With System Software there is no conversion necessary (other than packing with ACU), so I suspect we'll have it available fairly soon after its release.
Gary
Subj: Re: "Secret Keys" 89-07-15 15:13:14 EST
From: TMH2
Has anyone found any nifties besides 1) ExpressLoad message on boot and 2) SW credits in FINDER ??
T. Mike Howeth (TMH2)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-15 18:03:52 EST
From: JoshThomps
What, you mean when you kind of double-click real quickly when selecting "About the Finder"...it brings up a line mentioning some people who tested the Finder.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-16 10:04:14 EST
From: TMH2
No, I haven't seen that one....
I was referring to shift-option About.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-16 11:37:39 EST
From: AFA Parik
click on v1.0 in the cdevs.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-16 22:26:27 EST
From: HyperRam
Can you still turn the finder upside down with Option-About the Finder? I thought that was rad.
Ram
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-17 19:09:21 EST
From: TMH2
RAM: not that I can find.
Also: I saw the 1.0 on cpanel. (it even LOOKS like a control). Cute, but don't you think its a little too cutesy? I mean, why do we have to be publicly humiliated in front of users of that other computer system with something like that? Our screen resolution is bad enough without developer raspberries to compound it.
(No offense, guys, its just that I don't use my machine for Stickybear)
Z^\GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG\_
Z R
Z T. Mike Howeth II N
Z Dallas, Texas N
Z (TMH2) V
Z B Q
ZO WVWVWVWVWVWVWVWVP_
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-17 19:17:27 EST
From: TMH2
...but I will say this: I am astounded at the improvements to the system on 5.0. lineTo is warp 7. And Finder doesn't take ten days to do its initial Online stuff. Now, if we could just get the disappearing trash can bug exorcised....
>>Thank You<< to all who have (obviously) worked hard on this sys SW.
- TMH2
Subj: why? 89-07-18 16:53:42 EST
From: AFA Parik
no one forces you to click on v1.0 in the control panel.
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 & CMS's 89-07-19 21:17:31 EST
From: M Woolf
Will 5.0 support two (2) CMS drives on an Apple SCSI Card Rev c?
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-20 20:48:12 EST
From: Chinook4
It should, although you will have to reformat the drives so they will support Apple partitions.
Chris
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 & CMS's 89-07-21 20:28:22 EST
From: M Woolf
Why?
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-21 22:38:21 EST
From: Chinook4
Because that's the way Apple made it.
Subj: Re: Parik.... 89-07-21 23:21:59 EST
From: TMH2
LOL. That was the most appropriate answer I've ever seen to a message. You made my day.
T. Mike Howeth (TMH2)
Subj: Re: Partitioning 89-07-21 23:23:41 EST
From: TMH2
Unless I dreamed all of this, I belive that Apple is now partitioning (via GS/OS) hard drives in a manner similar to many other operating systems. That is, the boot sector of the disk contains the partition table, and it is therefore available for all (i.e. other OSs) who need it. Just to note, CMS as you may know actually used hardware partitioning, where physical jumpers determined the scheme.
T. Mike Howeth (TMH2)
Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-07-23 11:49:16 EST
From: Chinook4
TMH2, etc
Apple has been writing partitioning tables since rev C ROM on the Apple SCSI card. CMS cards do not write (or recognize) these partition tables and that's why the drive must be reformatted under the Apple card.
Furthermore, if you make a backup of your data before it is reformatted, make sure and use an incremental backup program and not an image backup utility. Since the volume size will be different on the Apple card, most incremental backups will not restore to a device of a different volume size.
Chris
Subj: Re: Partitioning 89-07-23 17:25:13 EST
From: TMH2
Actually, I did neither. Since my 277N formats to 61.5M, and since there is advantage to equal volume sizes, I partitioned my drive 30/30/1.5. Volume ":c" at 1.5M is quite handy (similar to a RAM disk without using RAM), and my backup/restore was a breeze. (To note, I tossed a CMS SCSI ifc and replaced it with Apple's)
